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Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, so I think that's kind of what happens with like every generation, like there's taking like their own steps ahead. So what usually also happens with parents is that they know about like LGBTQ plus identities and they even know like how to use the correct names, pronouns and stuff like that.
But then they get mixed up, like, okay, if you identify as female, how come you have like male clothes and male hairstyle and stuff like that? And that's how, like, they have, like, is it like deconstructed, like their own definitions,
Emry Kettle: Mm hmm.
Maarit Grönroos: and they were creating them themselves. And that's how our, like brain get like really mixed up that, okay, like what's happening here that this, this is not aligned with how I perceive the gender and it shouldn't be because they're making their own like gender expressions.
Emry Kettle: Hello and welcome to Parenting for Thought, the podcast that talks about things parents want to know. And even if not, we're here anyways. For my third ever guest, I have Maarit Grönroos. If I said that halfway correct, I feel like I get a gold star
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, definitely you get a gold star. Yeah.
Emry Kettle: I'll make my one other Finnish friend very proud.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah.
Emry Kettle: And we connected because we both follow the same business development strategist so it was it was a value match from day one and when I found out what Maarit does I got really excited and You're gonna find find out why in a sec once tells us what she does.
But I, I don't even remember who reached out to who first. I think it was just like a melding of, I think it was just a melding,
Maarit Grönroos: like collision in a good kind of way.
Emry Kettle: it was just like a melding of the minds and we were like, we need to collab in, in whatever way. A person, two people can collaborate. We need to be doing that. So we wrote you all a blog post and we're gonna talk about that today. So Maarit, who are you? What do you do?
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. So I'm Maarit Grönroos. I'm originally from Finland and now I live in California and I offer my coaching services wherever you have the internet connection. My background is as a clinical psychologist and a psychotherapist, and I'm specialized in gender, sexual and relationship diversities. So think about like all things queer. Those are like my basic day and my life. And I love that. Yeah, so I especially help parents in supporting their queer teens or like gender questioning teens.
Emry Kettle: and anybody who knows me can understand why that's an immediate value match. For me. You know, I've shared with a lot of folks, some of my background is I was raised Evangelical Christian and the being non binary or queer of any sort. It just, it's not even that it wasn't. Like, number one, it wasn't an option, and number two, I haven't even heard of it.
I didn't even know that non binary existed until I was in my thirties. And then once I learned about it, I'm like, wow, that feels, that feels like really natural to me. Like, that really resonates with me.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, and I'm so lucky about kids today because they have all the labels that they can sort of like go shopping with their identity. Okay, this is me, and this is me, and this is me, and this is the combination that I am. So they have much more tools than we had. Yeah,
Emry Kettle: has like a pronoun rotation. It's wonderful. And, and she'll correct me. You know, if, if it's a he day. He'll be like he, I'll be like, yeah, got it. It's wonderful.
Maarit Grönroos: yeah,
Emry Kettle: Yeah, it's a really beautiful thing. And, and so what, what I really loved was how you are more supporting teenagers or parents with teens.
And, you know, I'm typically supporting families with really young children and it's, When we have parents who are empowered to make informed decisions about their parenting in early childhood, the way that that links up in those teen years, Man, and this is what our blog post was about, right?
Maarit Grönroos: definitely. what's the saying about that? Like, when you plant a seed, so then you get to harvest it later. So that's kind of what happens with like early childhood and like adolescence. Yeah.
Emry Kettle: childhood leads to something later on. And this is a concept that I feel really strongly about, is that you've got to look ahead. And trace back to where you are and figure out then how to get there. And then it's so funny because I was talking to a friend of mine, who's a therapist, who, who was sharing how so much of the time he's Looking back and figuring out how to help folks catch up to where they are.
And so there's times for looking forward and times for looking behind.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, yeah. And actually what we really need to do, like, after those things is how to be, like, present in the moment. And, like, be present with our kid, be present with our teen. And, like, cherish that moment. Because that's what counts, like, in the end.
Emry Kettle: Well, and this is what I love. Poor parents. They can't. They can't do anything right, right? Because, you know, sometimes you have to look behind, sometimes you have to look ahead, and then don't forget to be present in the moment, and don't forget this, don't forget that, and
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah.
Emry Kettle: you're juggling so much.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah.
Emry Kettle: worry.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. And there are so many demands and that's what I usually like like parents come to me that they feel like they usually, like we usually have values alignment, a really good values alignment that they want to support their kid or their teen. they have like all of these demands in their head that I need to do this.
I need to do that. I need to do all kinds of things. But, and it, yeah, it's kind of that, yeah, you need to learn like a lot of stuff to support your like LGBTQIA plus teen or kid. But in the end it's the love that counts and
Emry Kettle: Oh, every time, right? Because if you're leading with love, You know, values, values shift and change over time. And this is something we discussed in our, in our blog post. And, you know, if you only have to go back a few generations until you're in the Victorian times where children were to be seen and not heard.
And, you know, specifically, you know, obviously Western. Ideologies here, which you and I are both white Westerners. So this is our culture and we're speaking to people from our cultures. That wasn't so long ago and since then every generation, every, every generation that's parenting wants to do better than their parents did for them and, and so on and so forth.
And now here we are where I feel like, you know, my parents generation was a, Just starting to come around to the idea of, well, what if my kid is gay? Could I, could I handle that? And many of the, many of that generation did get to a point where they were like, okay, like, fine, if my kid's gay, my kid's gay, I'll deal.
And now we have
these much bigger conversations where kids are talking about
about pansexuality, bisexuality, gender fluidity. And I, I feel like the kids are almost, I think this is true for every generation, where the kids are ready to move on a lot faster than the parents are. But I, I almost wonder if the rift is growing larger because, The conversations that the kids are ready to have are just exploding.
They are leaps and bounds ahead of where, where me and my cohort were at that same age.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah,
Emry Kettle: if you've noticed anything like this.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, so I think that's kind of what happens with like every generation, like there's taking like their own steps ahead. So what usually also happens with parents is that they know about like LGBTQ plus identities and they even know like how to use the correct names, pronouns and stuff like that.
But then they get mixed up, like, okay, if you identify as female, how come you have like male clothes and male hairstyle and stuff like that? And that's how, like, they have, like, is it like deconstructed, like their own definitions,
Emry Kettle: Mm hmm.
Maarit Grönroos: and they were creating them themselves. And that's how our, like brain get like really mixed up that, okay, like what's happening here that this, this is not aligned with how I perceive the gender and it shouldn't be because they're making their own like gender expressions.
Hello.
Emry Kettle: just say mic drop? Yeah I would love it if
a parent watching this could walk away feeling empowered
to let their kid make their own, come to their own conclusions. In the same way that that parent was able to do at some point in their journey For example with me. I wasn't allowed to come to my own conclusions about Gender and sexual identity and all of those things they were not options And and I know that that's true for so many other people Once I got away from those limitations Into my, in my thirties, then I was able to step into this new understanding and, and have some realizations of my own about myself, about the world.
And thank goodness the kids are doing it faster these days so they don't have to go through that kind of hell that I know I went through and that a whole bunch of my friends all went through. So.
our parents, these older
Maarit Grönroos: generations,.
Emry Kettle: they had those same experiences, but perhaps about different things.
Maybe they realized, well, is it really so evil to have sex before marriage? Maybe that's what they were thinking about. Or is smoking cigarettes really so bad or smoking weed really so bad?
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, yeah. So kind of like figuring out like, what are your own values? And then usually when he kids hit like puberty. So that's kind of like brings up like, okay. I used to have like my own path with this, like growing to be independent. And okay. These are my values. Maybe these are my parents values.
Not, not mine actually. And what are the values that I want to like. Like, like be aligned with when like bringing up my own team.
Emry Kettle: Yeah. And. And I think that there's so much room. I love challenging the idea of black and white thinking in, in every possible way. I'm very into gray areas and I, there's always room to marry the two, right? Like if a parent doesn't believe in any sort of gender fluidity or any sexual orientation other than being hetero, if that works for that individual, They can hold that belief true for themselves without holding it true for their child.
Now, I would disagree with their personal value. That's not my personal value.
Maarit Grönroos: But as long as
Emry Kettle: they're not causing harm, as long as they're not trying to make other people to share that same value, there's nothing wrong with having a personal value, even if everyone
around you disagrees with it. But the damage that it can do to not allow your child to it, to even explore the kind of value that they might want to have.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. Yeah.
Emry Kettle: Maybe you can touch on this.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. And it's not only about like values, but it's about like, okay, how do you actually perceive the world? what do you know about like, what science says about this? And we will not like, dive into that so much. it's,
Emry Kettle: That's a huge conversation.
Maarit Grönroos: yeah, yeah. also about like, how can you make room for your child to figure their own self out? if you can't hold the space, like in your own mind. And I feel that some, sometimes we like lie to ourselves that, okay, I feel like this, but then yeah, I can accept other people's like, like varying identities and genders and sexual orientations. But yeah, I feel like we really need to like meditate on those and self reflect on those.
Because I feel that we really like in our behavior, we show what we like feel is true for us.
Emry Kettle: I was just going to say, I wonder if we should discuss what does acceptance actually look like? Because it's not just the words. It's not just saying, yeah, I'm fine with people being gay or any type of queer. Acceptance means a lot more than that. And especially when it's around your children, you know, if it's some stranger you're on the street, acceptance looks very different than what acceptance looks like. In your home with your child.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. So I think I have like this kind of like personal story about like my own teenage years. When I came out as bisexual or like pansexual, whatever you want to call it. so then I have this sort of like silent acceptance from my parents that, okay, like you can be whatever you want. But kind of like, let's not, not make it a thing. So I was left like to manage it on my own. And I'm really like a deep thinker. So that was not a good choice, but they didn't know that. And I can, I can like understand that they came from a different generation, but this is kind of like the message that I want to send out. So it's not enough to say like in a neutral way that, hey, you're okay. It kind of sends the message that, okay, so you are like this. I love you anyways, and that's not the message you want to send, like, it's not neutral.
Emry Kettle: I love you in spite of the fact.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah.
Emry Kettle: Yeah. Ouch.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. Because I feel like true acceptance is like, Oh my God, I learned this like new exciting thing about like, you and about you.
I love you because of that. I love you for that. I love that in you.
Emry Kettle: You know, I, I also love to talk about how do you know this phrase, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander?
Maarit Grönroos: Okay. You need to explain that a bit. Maybe you have an example.
Emry Kettle: So essentially what it means is and then you'll have to tell me the equivalent finish phrase for this. But it's, what it means is like, what's good for one person is not good for the next. And, And the silent acceptance for you was not the right thing, but I would be willing to bet that there is some teenager out there where that would be the right thing.
And this is where, you know, folks like you and I coaches, we can present parents with so many options of like, well, this is one way of showing acceptance. This is another way. And you've got to try these things out. You know, like. You're the expert on your child. We're the experts on the subjects, on the development, on the, on the behaviors, on the relationships.
So we can give you a hundred ideas and then you need to go through and figure out which one is. Correct for your situations.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, and some parents really do have, like, a really sensitive and gentle way of showing, like, actual acceptance. Like, they buy the right books like, throw them around in the living room. They, like, buy queer art or they take like, their kids into, like, queer coffee shops or stuff like that. So there are like all kinds of things that you can do or like, like share, like queer social media, like information posts. it's not about like actual, like, what do you like say and what kind of conversations you have? Like, it's about like everything else as well.
Emry Kettle: absolutely. You know, there's for sure. You've heard this phrase actions speak louder than words.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah,
Emry Kettle: And,
Maarit Grönroos: So true. Yeah.
Emry Kettle: many ways to show acceptance. Right.
Maarit Grönroos: Hmm.
Emry Kettle: and I, I love this idea of buying queer art and buying books on queerness and just kind of filling the home. Mm hmm. In subtle but meaningful ways with things that, that broaden the horizon.
And you know, if leave it to your kid to start the conversation, you know, you again, parents, you know your kids better than we know your kids. If, if you kid is the kind who can. Start the conversation on their own or who needs a lot of time to warm up. These subtle ways are really beautiful or if your kid is the conversation starter or can handle you come and ride at them and saying What the heck is up with this non binary like teach me things like child you teach me because for sure You know more about this than I do.
What a great way to just break down some walls. and let your kids show off what they know and then dive in with them.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. I feel like the actual challenge is like, how can parents like self regulate when they're hearing stuff for the first time? So how can they like take, take a deep breath and be like, okay, I have two ears, one mouth. They should be used in that proportion. Yeah.
Emry Kettle: Well, I mean, I think it's for folks who aren't necessarily ready for, you know, this, this big topic of, of queerness with their child. I imagine it feels Perhaps equivalent to their child coming home and saying like, Oh, I, I tried cocaine last night, you know, it, it might feel really shocking and, and it might be very jarring and, and an opportunity for everybody to explore what their values are and what this means.
And, you know, perhaps if we could even help somebody to shift from a fearful mindset to an inquisitive one. I love to tell parents to get curious.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. That
Emry Kettle: in every context.
Maarit Grönroos: my mind also.
Emry Kettle: Yeah, I love
Maarit Grönroos: that, okay, my kid did not try cocaine. That was not what happened. The kid did nothing illegal. He or she or they were just exploring themselves. They found out something new. They're curious about their genders. They're curious about their sexual orientation. What a wonderful thing. Like they're curious about themselves. that's the very basis of like mental wellbeing, like being curious and open to yourselves and your feelings.
Emry Kettle: that. I love that. And so to bring it into to early childhood for a moment, you know, you share these great ideas about books and art, kids, parents of young kids, you can be doing exactly that. The same thing there are so many books out there and you know, it occurs to me. I should link those, to this Podcast recording so parents can find that there are so many books that cover so many topics It is so totally okay To be talking about gender and sexuality with your teeny tiny tot.
They're ready for these things. Now, there's no need to get into the weeds about how people have sex. That's not the conversation that they're ready for. That's what your teenager's ready for. But your really young children
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. In a, in an age appropriate way.
Emry Kettle: Exactly, exactly. Let the books, let, let the people who wrote the books do the heavy lifting for you. Get the book, read it with your kid, and then one of my favorite things to tell parents to ask their child, What do you think about that?
Maarit Grönroos: yeah, yeah. Like such a simple question. And it opens so many doors.
Emry Kettle: Your kid will ask you what they're ready to ask you. There are three year olds and again, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. Different three year olds will ask different questions. Some might not ask any questions, but some might ask Well, why did this kid do that in this story? Or well, why did this person behave this way in this story?
Dive in, talk with your kid about it and, and let them show you. What their interest level is, what they're ready for, what's happening in their mind. Cause, you know, anybody who's had a kid knows that, that, you know, this kid comes out, kids come out with their own opinions pretty fast.
Maarit Grönroos: yeah. Yeah. They do. And I'm really thinking about, like, all kinds of, like, storybooks that are there for, like, kids, especially in English, like, so many more books than in Finnish. So, I'm really thinking about, like, sometimes parents get, like, kind of tired, like, reading the same story, like, over and over again, but I want to tell you that there's a point in that. Like, the kid is processing something in that particular story, and that's, like, super important for their development. So if the kid ask like the same story, like dozens and dozens of time, like take a deep breath. Yeah. Do go back again and again to that particular story because it has something like super precious for your kid.
Emry Kettle: Well said. Thank you for the, what a beautiful moment for our listeners. I love that.
So, this, this topic of, of queerness and accepting queer kids, that's big, right? And, and you even talked about the self regulation for the adults. So we talked about this in our blog post too, Emotional Intelligence in the Home. And this is, this is the bulk of the work that I do with parents, right?
It's teaching them emotional intelligence, language, teaching them how to honor everybody's emotions in the home, including their own, very especially their own.
Maarit Grönroos: yeah. Yeah.
Emry Kettle: And how this leads to the ability to discuss tough topics as your children grow.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, I feel like parents have like a difficult task in their hands, like at their hands, especially with teenagers, like, okay, or the same with toddlers, I reckon, because the kids or teens have like huge emotions, and they're right there, like, at your face, in that moment, in that very moment. And then it's the time for the parent to like, okay, I did have my emotions, like my own emotions, but they're going on a shelf now. And they're going to live there for a while. And I'm making room, like being a container for my child's emotions. No matter if the child is like a toddler or a teenager, and I'm taking in all of their emotions and their like emotional turmoil. And then after those moments, after those discussions and being present in the moment, I will go back to my own shelf of emotions, take my emotions and be with my own emotions. So it's usually like how to make that process happen and how to like recognize your own feelings and emotions and how to name them. Because usually like. Pinpointing them with a name that usually helps a ton. I
Emry Kettle: man.
Maarit Grönroos: noticed the same, probably. Yeah.
Emry Kettle: time I am. The biggest fan of an emotions wheel. It's never just anger or sadness or happiness. It's always something more specific than that. Huge, a huge one and very, very nuanced. And yeah, I mean, toddlers versus teens, who's to say which set of hormones is more difficult.
Right.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Emry Kettle: So, you know, we might have listeners who, whose kids are nine, 10, 11 years old. They're getting into, you know, pre puberty times into the early teens even. And they're going, well, I didn't know about all this stuff back then.
And maybe I, or, you know, You know, maybe I said overtly homophobic or, you know, gender phobic stuff and, and I've done the damage. Sure. Damage has been done and it is never too late.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah. damage can also be repaired. Like, it's kind of like you have to be like really, like have empathy with yourself. Like you did the best that you could in that particular situation in your life. now with the teenager, you have the second chance. So take that time and acknowledge that, okay, I did some things that might have done damage, but okay, I'm like, kind of like reflecting on those. And now I can make like better choices. I have more information now. And I feel the challenge is usually like, like parents maybe don't want to feel, feel fame. Like they can feel ashamed that, okay, I did so much damage, like, oh no. And yeah, that's not the thing. Like feel empathy towards yourself and say that, yeah, I know that this happened. But I'm okay with that. I'm not a perfect human being. And that's actually what our kids need to see, that we're not perfect. And then moving forward, you're like, okay, what are the better choices that I want to make now? And then actively making those in our behavior.
Emry Kettle: Beautifully said, Maarit. Thank you. So if there was one thing, Maarit, that you wish that someone would walk away today knowing, what would it be? Thank you
Maarit Grönroos: Well, I kind of want to say that especially with, like, genderqueer like, teenagers. Like, because somehow, like, sometimes it feels for, especially for parents, that it's about the pronouns. And I want to say at the same time that, yes, it is about using the correct pronouns. But it's also not, like, totally not about the pronouns. Because those are words. And okay, they are important, like very important, but there's something even more important, and that's like the connection, like how does your teen feel when they're interacting with you? Do they feel safe? Do they feel loved, accepted, honored, respected? that's the thing that matters. So, when, not if, but when you will make mistakes with pronouns, I, I'm, I'm doing them like all the time especially with a different language. So that happens. So then don't focus on yourself and be like, Oh no, I made a mistake. I'm so sorry. So sorry. So sorry. This was because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it becomes like all about you. So notice that you made a mistake. I said, okay, I'm sorry. He, she, yeah, that's what I meant. And then carry on with the actual conversation that was going on because that was about your teen. It was not about you. And if you want to feel that shame, then go have it on your own time. Not your kid's time.
Emry Kettle: Maarit, we need to already book episode two together and we can have a whole half hour talk about pronouns just by itself. That's such an important one. That's such a good one. Thank you so much for being here with us today.
Maarit Grönroos: me.
I love our collaboration.
Emry Kettle: I can't wait for the next thing.
Maarit Grönroos: Yeah, me too.